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Talk:Stalinism

The photo of Lenin with Stalin is not a doctored photo

These references below the photo are inaccurate, there were several photos taken at the time of this photo, showing Lenin and Stalin together in these clothes, here is another of the photos: https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DNAJM0tONbA/WmRa80f7GeI/AAAAAAAAEDI/s4rL4BW96tsbZUKxf3rE8S_HCBb08F1OwCLcBGAs/s1600/Lenin%2Band%2BStalin.jpg and here is another https://cdn.nybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/pipes_1-112014.jpg. I do not have a source that refutes the assertion that the photo is doctored, but there may be some out there, but the other photos I have shown here should at least make an assertion that the photo is doctored seem dubious and that a claim that it is doctored should not be treated as a clear-cut fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.229.82.158 (talk)

Trotsky about Einstein

this edit about views of Trotsky on Einstein is irrelevant in this article, which is about Stalinism, not Trotskyism. - Altenmann >talk 16:23, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Altenmann This cited source discusses a number of things. A major, scientific theory which was suppressed specifically during the Stalinist era and a source of contention in the Soviet Union. It represents a defining element of ideological represssion exclusive to Stalin, Stalinism and his period. That sentence aligns with the entire sub-section. It serves as an example of the broader points on ideological repression raised in the sub-section.WikiUser4020 (talk) 16:27, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Leon Trotsky had defended Einstein" - this statemnet is irrelevant WP:UNDUE: Trotsky has no inflyuence in Soviets at these times whatsoever. His views belong to his article. - Altenmann >talk 16:47, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Altenmann The latter point is wholly subjective. Trotsky was still a prominent figure of opposition and dissent throughout the 1920s (Soviet Opposition faction) until his death in 1940. The sourced comment is from 1925/6 during the ascent of Stalin and Stalinism. This section is far from WPDUE but as previously mentioned this should be decided via consensus vote. I have moved the content in chronological order.WikiUser4020 (talk) 16:58, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There cannot possibly be correct. (1) In 1925 Stalin had no dictatorship power yet (2) attack on Einstein was in late 1940s. - Altenmann >talk 17:08, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Altenmann The statement is sourced from Deutscher’s 2015 biography of Trotsky. To provide context, he was discussing the emerging marginalization of scientific and literary circles due to the dominant Stalin faction at this period. The full statement as quoted below.
“Trotsky’s plea fell on deaf ears. The psycho-analytical theory was presently banished from the universities. Less specifically but even more categorically he defended Einstein’s theory of relativity, but to the ecclesiastical “materialism” of the Stalin era that theory, too, became anathema; and only after Stalin’s death was it to be “rehabilitated”. (p730, Deutscher 2015) WikiUser4020 (talk) 17:16, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I can read the book myself. Trotsky was exiled in early 1929. It is well known that relativity theory was undder two major waves of attack in 1933 and in 1949-1952. There were sporadic wrangles in 1920s, where Einstein was dogmatically accused of Machism by overzealous dialectical materialists. But as I said, this period in no way associated with Stalinism. In other words, influence of Trotsky was minimal here, hence WP:UNDUE. Much large role in defense of Einstein played prominent physicists, Tamm, Ioffe, Frenkel, etc. - Altenmann >talk 19:52, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Altenmann The source statement clearly references Stalin’s era and that Einstein’s theory was rehabilitated following Stalin’s death. The link is clearly explicit and relevant to the sub section on ideological repression. WikiUser4020 (talk) 19:56, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am questioning the relevance of Trotsky's opinion, as well as the statement that Trotsky's defense was related to oppression of Einstein, which, as I wrote, was after Trotsky. - Altenmann >talk 20:15, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Altenmann The discussion has become circular. The sourced statement is not Trotsky's opinion but Deutscher's description of Trotsky's opposition to the marginalization of experimental, literary and scientific ideas during the 1920s with the ascent of the Stalin-dominated triumvirate.
This sentence fits within the wider context of the sub-section as the preceding sentence in the main article states "Prior to Stalin's rule, literary, religious and national representatives had some level of autonomy in the 1920s but these groups were later rigorously repressed during the Stalinist era."- The following reference to Trotsky's opposition to ideological repression under Stalin's influence adds further context and highlights the contrast between the relatively tolerant approach of early Bolshevik rule and the far more repressive, attitude which characterised the Stalinist era.
Rather, than continue this back and forth debate. Let other users share their views to reach a consensus view. WikiUser4020 (talk) 20:26, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Concluding, it remains to prove that "Stalinist repression" of theory of relativity was in 1920s. Which is IMO false, because in these years there was plenty of marxist dogmatics who criticized relativity, but this has nothing to do with "stalinism" and "repression" because it was not banned in 1920s. - Altenmann >talk 23:16, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Altenmann Alternatively, as a compromise, you could cite examples from the 1940s in which Einstein’s theory was formally denounced as mentioned in your previous posts. WikiUser4020 (talk) 04:10, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you can read Russian, there is one summarizing article "How the USSR fought and almost defeated the theory of relativity". from 20s to 50s. I am not sure about author's expertise: he is not a professional historian, but some facts and names are here. However when I tried to find more for you, further search revealed a surprizing number of RUssian crackpots writing on the subject plausibly sounding but copying arguments and "facts" from each other Unfortunately I don't really have much interest for digging into this now, although it was me who started the articles Repression of science in the Soviet Union and Ideological repression in the Soviet Union. - Altenmann >talk 04:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
However one fact I did find confirmed from primary source: the journal Under the banner of Marxism, no.7, 1942 published a statement of the USSR academy of science (found it: Anniversary session of the USSR Academy of Sciences : dedicated to the 25th anniversary of the great October socialist revolution which among other thing said "the actual scientific and philosophical content of the theory of relativity, even independently of the theoretical conclusions often made based on it, represent a step forward in the discovery of the dialectical laws of nature.". I.e.., at least in 1942 all was OK with Stalin and Einstein. (surely the statement was vetted on the highest level). - Altenmann >talk 05:10, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Altenmann I think the sources below may be more suitable and relevant for inclusion.
The book is "Einstein and Soviet Ideology" - written historian Alexander Vucinich states
"During this stage, Soviet authorities encouraged Marxist theorists to conduct an open war on the "idealistic" aspects of Einsteinian thought.At the end of the Stalin era, Marxist voices were in favour of a total rejection of the general theory of relativity..."
"Stalinist attacks on Einstein were actually attacks on the scientific community...."
Another source written by political scientists states that "Stalin opposed Einstein's theory of relativity as contradicting the official Soviet model". WikiUser4020 (talk) 06:25, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The first book is good but the second ref sucks. I challenge anyone find any word of Stalin against Einstein. - Altenmann >talk 06:27, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Altenmann We can compromise with those changes. I've re-edited the article now and removed the reference to Trotsky. WikiUser4020 (talk) 07:00, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Last version looks good to me and well sourced. "word of Stalin against Einstein"? This page is about the Stalinist system and policies, not about necessarily something that Stalin openly said, although citing him on this page is OK. My very best wishes (talk) 16:41, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know that, colleague, but the author of the second source obviously do not. The quote: "Stalin opposed Einstein's theory" shows that the author do not know what she is talking about. There were ultraorthodox Marxists which opposed Einstein because they thought his theory contradicts their dogmatic view on dialectic materialism waay before Stalin came to power and they continued their wrangle for power with varying success. - Altenmann >talk 17:35, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to discuss this with WikiUser4020 on their talk page [3], but they reverted. Yes, let's stop this discussion: there is apparently a consensus not to include Trotsky here. My very best wishes (talk) 16:06, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just including the final response on the talk page as an appendage. As the user, Altenmann, mentioned that the discussion should be concise and relevant.[4]WikiUser4020 (talk) 08:28, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 7 June 2024

Remove biased language. 23.28.148.2 (talk) 14:07, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Czello (music) 14:10, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its clearly biased. Did you read the article? 23.28.148.2 (talk) 00:15, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're going to have to be more specific. Though judging from your recent editing history I'm guessing this isn't a request for more neutrality in the article. — Czello (music) 09:49, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]